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Podcast: The History of the Paleo Movement (April 2014)

By The Paleo Diet Team
January 6, 2020
Podcast: The History of the Paleo Movement (April 2014) image

Dr. Loren Cordain: Hi, I'm Loren Cordain. I'm the founder of the Paleo Diet movement.

Shelley Schlender: I'm Shelley Schlender. This is The Paleo Diet Podcast for January 2013.

Dr. Loren Cordain: For our first podcast ever, we're going to talk about the history of the Paleo movement, and how Paleo became a household word.

Shelley Schlender: Loren's also going to share some new parts of the Paleo movement, plus ideas for future podcasts.

Shelley Schlender: Loren Cordain it's good to talk with you again, and at this point you are very famous.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Shelley, I don't know about that. Somebody said everybody's famous for five minutes, but my name is fairly well known in the Paleo community.

Shelley Schlender: It's not only well known in Paleo community, but there are documentaries about health and living where you are a featured person of them. You're sought after by a lot of the major news groups when it comes to talking about health and diet. You're not a doctor, but a lot of people credit you with helping their health or their athletic performance get to new high levels. That counts as a lot of fame to me.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Thanks, Shelley. What I really want to do is get this message out to a larger audience, and hopefully that’s what these podcasts are going to be all about. This is our very first podcast, and this podcast we're going to look at the history of this Paleo Diet movement, how it all came about. For the listeners I'd like to introduce you to Shelley. She has interviewed me many times before on radio and other media. She's a great person, a great resource.

Shelley Schlender: I like the fact that when I talk with you I get to learn some new stuff. I'm glad to get this opportunity as well. I remember back to maybe the first time I interviewed you, which may have been 10, 15. When not many people knew who you were there at Colorado State University. You had this office that was packed with information about Paleo Diets. It was kind of a frustrating time, exciting but frustrating, because you were pretty sure that this could help a lot of people, this information, and not a lot of people knew about it.


Dr. Loren Cordain: Shelley those were the early days, you know. If I look back a decade ago to 2003 Paleo was just kind of a cupboard idea that was known by a few scientists and anthropologists. Very few lay people, or common people, that were interested diet, fitness, and health knew of the concept. What I'd like to really do today is talk about how Paleo came about. I think one of the best ways to do it is to really look at where we are now. There's no doubt in my mind that Paleo has become absolutely enormous. It's a household word. You need to look no further than the internet to see how big this thing has really become.

Shelley Schlender: That's right. There are so many people now who know why they want to search for the word Paleo. For people who don't know what it is, for people who think Paleo just means cave drawings on walls in France, what do you eat when you're on a Paleo Diet?

Dr. Loren Cordain: Most of the people that are listening to this podcast are probably pretty aware of what you eat. The word Paleo came from the word Paleolithic, which means old stone age. What we're trying to do with this diet is to replicate the diet of our ancestors, our stone age ancestors, using contemporary foods. It would be impossible to try to eat precisely the way they do, but what we're trying to do is using modern foods that are available at the supermarket to emulate the nutritional characteristics of these foods.

Shelley Schlender: While it's modern foods, it's not foods like dairy. It's not foods like grains. Sugar, sugar is not in a Paleo Diet very much except for through fruit.


Dr. Loren Cordain: That's right. I think sometimes we talk about fruit, fruit can be a little bit problematic particularly with people with diabetes or who are overweight or have obesity. We can talk about that on a future podcast. What I really want to get into is where this whole thing started, and how it began. I feel very fortunate in having been at the center of this Paleo movement.

As you mentioned, it started off with just a few scientists, anthroplogists, and some interested people on the internet. I first became aware of this in 1987, and that was two short years after Boyd Eaton published his very famous paper in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1985.

Shelley Schlender: What was his paper? What did he do that broke open this whole world?

Dr. Loren Cordain: Boyd is really the godfather of the Paleo movement. I think the way we should look at it historically is pre-Eaton, which was the publication of paper in 1985, and post-Eaton. This paper was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine and it's called "Paleolithic nutrition. A consideration of its nature and current implications." It got everything going. It made the medical and the scientific community aware of this notion of trying eat, or emulate the nutritional characteristics of our ancestors.

Shelley Schlender: Was it that was Boyd was saying guess what folks, the Paleo world, our ancestors, they did not eat at supermarkets.

Dr. Loren Cordain: That's right. As simplistic and as easy it is to understand now, it makes a lot of sense, is that that concept was revolutionary in 1985. It didn't really take off. Here we are almost 30 years down the road, yes, now it has taken off. We see tens of thousands of websites if you Google the Paleo Diet, you get what, five or six million hits. All kinds of websites devoted to this. Robb Wolf's website, Mark Sisson's, Mark's Daily Apple, PaleoHacks. The number of books that are devoted to Paleo is literally staggering. If you go to Amazon, there's what, 7 or 8 hundred books have something to do with Paleo and Paleo lifestyles. When I wrote my first book in 2002 there was about two books that were still in print. Boyd's first book The Paleolithic Prescription, which came out in 1988, and my book. That was pretty much it.


Shelley Schlender: What you both were saying that if people change to how their ancestors ate, it might deal with a lot of health problems and improve athletic performance.

Dr. Loren Cordain: That's absolutely right. I think that in future podcasts we're going to hone in on that. I think we can have a podcast on why some people shouldn't be eating fruit, particlarly modern day fruit that can be high in sugar.

Going back to that pre/post Eaton paper is that Boyd really got things going. Prior to 1985, there were a couple of books and scientific articles. I just want to list a few for our readers, is one of the very first guys to ever get involved with the Paleo concept was Weston Price.

Shelley Schlender: Weston Price was a dentist, but I've got to tell you Loren that I've asked almost every dentist I've ever met if they know who Weston Price was. Nobody does, if they're a dentist they don't know who Weston Price was.

Dr. Loren Cordain: That's right. It's like a lot of the pre-1985 literature on this concept. It was out there, it was simmering, but nobody listened to it. Weston Price's book is just a wonderful resource. He was, as you mentioned, a dentist that travelled the world in the early part of the 20th century. He went all over places where people were non-Westernized. Took photographs of their facial structures, their jaws, their teeth. Recorded what their diets were. Wherever he travelled, he found people that had magnificent dental health, and these people didn't brush their teeth and didn't floss, but they were eating the natural the foods that are available to them. That book was a wonderful resource.


However, the evolutionary concept, the notion of evolution by natural selection, really wasn't in play very well in 1939. It was kind of an obtuse concept that scientists used, but the average person on the street didn't pay much attention to it, particlarly with nutrition.

Shelley Schlender: The other thing about that book though is that it wasn't just about teeth. He observed that women give birth more easily if they're not eating a Western diet. There were a lot of things that he saw that told him health in general would be better.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Shelley that's a really good point. I think the notion that when women are on this diet, female reproductive problems, dysmenorrhea, oligomenorrhea, painful periods and so forth I can't tell you how many times I've heard it anecdotally that women who have had these problems throughout their lives, they can't get pregnant, bingo this really works. Boy, wouldn't that be, maybe we should, maybe we should do a podcast devoted strictly to that. That's a great idea, and that comes out from some of this early literature.

There's a couple other interesting books that came out afterwards. For our readers that may want to go to the library, or even try to get these on Amazon, there's another guy named Arnold DeVries, he wrote a book called Primitive Man and His Food. That was published in 1952.

Shelley Schlender: I've never heard of that one. I don't know what that is.

Dr. Loren Cordain: It's a rather obscure book. Believe or not, you can get the entire book online. If you Google that book, there is a website that has produced a PDF of that entire book. I have one of the two or three extant copies. I don't think ... I think I lent it somebody, and they xeroxed it and made a PDF out of it. It is available online. It's a great resource. It's kind of similar to Price's book, not nearly as lengthy, with no photographs like what Price did. It was the same concept. These guys, non-Westernized populations are eating the foods that were available to them, and they were very very healthy.

The next book that came out was Walter Voegtlin.


Shelley Schlender: I'm glad you pronounced his name for me, because I never would have tried.

Dr. Loren Cordain: (Laughs) Voegtlin. I think, if you do the correct German pronunciation. I'm not that good, we should have one of our German listeners come on in and give us some correct pronunciation. He wrote another book called the Stone Age Diet. For those of you that are looking for new titles for Paleo books, the Stone Age Diet is already taken. This was published in 1975. Not much really knew with this concept.

Those are three popular books that predated the very thing, this 1985 Boyd Eaton article. There are other scientific papers, and there's a fellow, a physician from Australia, and his name is Shatin. In all the scientific papers he just listed his first initial R. We're not sure if he was Richard or Robert or what. It was R. Shatin. If you go on Medline, you can find all of his papers. He wrote some just incredible stuff, starting in the early 60s. I think his very first paper was 1962 or 3. He had it right on, it's amazing. If you read this stuff, it was like wow, he pre-dated Boyd Eaton by 25 years. (Laughs)

Shelley Schlender: That's a lot. He was on this topic early. Loren Cordain, it seems to me that a lot of us always look for the latest news. It's sometimes fascinating and humbling to see that people 40, 50, 60, 100 years ago already were figuring this out.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Isn't that true Shelley? It's almost as if we're reinventing the wheel. We really do need to give recognition to those that came before us, because in 1961, I mean if Boyd's paper was cutting edge, ahead of the envelope, you can imagine was Shatin was doing in 61. He published this stuff in just obscure journals. He was in Australia, and he really didn't get into the New England Journal of Medicine like Boyd did. His stuff was buried in the literature and you rarely see it cited. I found it it years ago and was just amazed.


There's another too, HL Abrams, who actually was involved with the Weston Price people. In 1979 he wrote another paper called The Relevance of Paleolithic Diet in determining contemporary nutritional needs. What a great title! The relevance of paleolithic diet in determining contemporary nutritional needs.

Shelley Schlender: It kind of says the point of it, yes.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Once again, where was it published? It was published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition. That's an obscure journal, you probably can't even find it anywhere, except for major university libraries.

Shelley Schlender: Maybe in your list of files that you have there in your office, I bet you've got it.

Dr. Loren Cordain: (Laughs) Yeah, I do. Indeed I have all of these. Where I got all of these, and how it all began was in 1987. I read Boyd Eaton's New England Journal of Medicine paper.

Shelley Schlender: That's when you were 36 years old.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Yeah, I was like a lot of our CrossFit people, and I'm 62. A lot of the younger folks that are doing Paleo it's like, my world revolved around fitness and health and diet. I was looking for a diet that could help me personally. I hate to say it, I don't have any ulterior motives to improve the world or this or that or whatever. I was just looking for something that would help me out.

Shelley Schlender: You were an athlete?

Dr. Loren Cordain: I was an athlete in college. I was a high jumper, of all things, at the University Nevada-Reno. Then I was a lifeguard at a major open water beach at Lake Tahoe's Sand Harbor. Diet and health and fitness, we were always interested in this stuff back in the day.

Shelley Schlender: You know what, Loren Cordain, if I recall you haven't always been a meat eater. There was a time where you actually were a vegan, and it didn't work very well for you.


Dr. Loren Cordain: You're absolutely right Shelley. Along with the evolution of this concept of Paleo was the evolution of Loren Cordain. Having grown up in Southern California, we all thought that the healthiest diet in those days was a vegetarian plant-based diet. Believe me, Shelley, I went through that phase of beans and brown rice. I can tell you, it was some of the worst health phases of my entire life. I've been a runner my entire life, and a swimmer as well. I can't tell you how much I was injured. Continual injury and upper respiratory problems. Seems like every winter I caught the flu or this, that, and the other. Once I went Paleo it completely changed.

Shelley Schlender: We know that there are people who are vegans and vegetarians and eat dairy and grains and they seem to do just fine. The world may be a better place in terms of people's health because for you that kind of eating didn't seem to fit. You started looking into it.

Dr. Loren Cordain: I would never be one to say that one size fits all. I think that that's very important. You and I will get into this in subsequent podcasts. God, we've really hit a lot of topics we've got to cover. Women's reproductive health, vegan/vegetarianism. In my new book The Paleo Answer I devote chapters to these. If somebody wants to get a little bit ahead of the curve you can read that book, and we can talk about it.

Going back to my personal evolution on diet is I did read Boyd's paper in 1987. I thought it was the best idea I had ever heard. What I did, Shelley, is I went out. In those days we didn't have the internet, or we had it but no one used it and it was something that was an obscure tool used by computer scientists. I looked at all the references in this fantastic paper by Boyd Eaton. I went down to our local library, Colorado State, and over the course of the next couple of weeks I xeroxed every single citation in that article. There was about 80 of them. I got all of those papers, and I read all of those. Guess what, everyone of those papers has a cite.


Shelley Schlender: (Laughs)

Dr. Loren Cordain: 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 citations. I started getting those. I started to see patterns develop. I had these filing cabinets, and I had the file folders and so forth. I ended up putting all of these articles in file folders. I started to see patterns emerge. Stone Age people didn't consume dairy, they didn't eat grains, they didn't eat processed foods, they obviously didn't eat sugars except for honey. I pursued each and every one of these topics. That's kind of how the whole thing evolved, and that's how I ultimately met Boyd Eaton.

Let's just go back to that 1987 paper. Let's fast forward a little bit, and by 1991 I decided I'm going to do a modern day Paleo. I'd just been recently married to my wife Lorrie. She says let's give it a shot, because she had also done the vegan/vegetarian thing like me. We started including meat in our diet. We cut all grains out and all dairy. Low and behold I thought we're going to have all kinds of health problems. It was exactly the opposite.

Lorrie was a triathlete, her times improved. I could train better than I ever could. The lifeguard on the beach, my time's improved for time paddle swims and runs that we did as these lifeguard activities. It was absolutely wonderful. I continued to read and read and read in the scientific literature. Now I'd accumulated probably 10,000 papers, put them into my cabinets, and finally, guess what Shelley, I got up enough courage to call Boyd Eaton on the telephone in 1994.

Shelley Schlender: Wow, okay. Let's do some math here. You first read his paper in 1987?

Dr. Loren Cordain: Yes.

Shelley Schlender: When was it that you called him up?

Dr. Loren Cordain: 1994 is when I called Boyd.

Shelley Schlender: Seven lucky years later you called up basically the god of Paleo science.


Dr. Loren Cordain: He was my hero. I couldn't even believe it. I'm talking to Boyd Eaton. (Laughs) He was my hero, because he had published a number of papers after the New England Journal paper, that followed up on his original idea. Nobody in the world was listening to Boyd. Or very few people were.

Shelley Schlender: Was he someone who when you called him he said oh yes, you're one of my underlings and all of this. Or did he say finally there's somebody who wants to know what I'm saying?

Dr. Loren Cordain: Are you kidding? Boyd Eaton is a complete gentleman from the word go. I have never met a kinder, nicer human being than Boyd Eaton. We had the most wonderful conversation. He actually is a radiologist in Atlanta. He does a little bit of teaching in the anthropology department at Emory.

Shelley Schlender: This is a side-interest for him. He's a world scholar in this, but he's like a lot of other people who approach this by being just terribly curious about it. He wanted to figure it out.

Dr. Loren Cordain: That's right. Boyd is Harvard trained, and just an incredible intellect. He came up with this notion of Paleolithic nutrition, he must have been thinking about it for years, and he finally published it in this incredibly prestigious journal, the New England Journal. What an intellect. He's not in a university or an academic environment, and he's reading all these scientific papers. He's a radiologist. You really have to hand it to Boyd for getting everything going.

Going back to that telephone call in 1994, we spoke for over an hour. He's a working radiologist, and I called him in the middle of his shift. Instead of saying "Loren, I've got patients, I've got this blah blah blah," we talked. At the end of the telephone conversation he gave me, Shelley, probably the greatest compliment of my entire life. He said it sounds to me like you know more about this than I do. (Laughs) I thought wow, that is so cool.


Anyway, I invited him to come up to CSU, and he ended up coming up to CSU I believe it was 1995. Yes, it was in April. That was the first time we met. Boyd spoke in our department. We hit it off. We started publishing scientific papers together, in the mid to late 90s.

Shelley Schlender: One thing that's happened with your scientific papers, they're at Colorado State University, this isn't all just a matter of xerox papers and looking at the studies that other people haven't noticed. You had this thing called a laboratory. You've actually been testing out some of the molecular ways that food works inside of people. Also doing other things to not only look at what the history of Paleo has been, but what the physiology is inside of us today.

Dr. Loren Cordain: That's right Shelley. As I became more and more immersed in this field, my training is science, PhD in Health Sciences from the University of Utah, 1981. I was trained in statistics, I was trained in research design, and trained in chemistry, biology, molecular medicine as it stood at the time.

Shelley Schlender: Yes, those modern things. Those things that aren't Paleo, they're called science.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Right. What I did is instead of becoming an exercise physiologist for my career goal, I ended becoming an evolutionary nutritionist. At the time, there was no such thing. Boyd and me and a few others, Stefan Lindenberg at the University of Lund in Sweden. We kind of were instrumental in creating this whole thing.

Going back to this historical thing, is that after I had connected with Boyd, Boyd said you got to connect with other folks. He invited me to go to Greece with him to meet Armis Semopolis, who was running an international conference on diet and nutrition in Athens just before the Olympics. I got to meet virtually anybody who was anyone in that two weeks in Greece. Spent some very incredible, enjoyable time with Armis and many other nationally known nutritional scientists on a bus, and we toured the Peloponnese in Greece. Armis is a wonderful woman. She's an MD from Greece. Her area of interest is in omega-3 fatty acids, and she said Loren, this idea about cereal grains is great. You need to publish this. She was the editor of a scientific journal, and she agreed to do it. That was really my first solo, major publication.


Shelley Schlender: What was the name of that one?

Dr. Loren Cordain: That was called "Cereal Grains: Humanity's Double-Edged Sword" All of the listeners, you can pull any of these articles up at my website as PDF files. That's what really got things going. Then Shelley, there's one other really important event that I think we ought to let the readers know about, so they can kind of understand the history of this Paleo Diet concept.

It really didn't have a name. It wasn't called the Paleo Diet. It wasn't even called Paleo at the time. The only real moniker that had been put on it was Boyd's Paleolithic Nutrition from the New England Journal. We really didn't call it anything, we just looked at it as this idea. By 1997 it had snowballed to the point where people wanted to talk to one another about it, but it was a very small community in 1997. In those days we didn't have blogs, we had something called a listserv. You know what a listserv is, Shelley?

Shelley Schlender: I think it has to do with the internet.

Dr. Loren Cordain: It was kind of like this group of people that got together on the very, very beginnings of the internet, where people were actually using it. There was a listserv devoted to Paleolithic diet symposium list. Believe me, this is where it all started. I actually have the entire thing recorded, so anybody who's interested in it, I've got PDFs of very single submission from 97 until about 2002 or 3 or something.

Shelley Schlender: That'd be like pulling up the tablets of Moses or something. That's a ways back there.


Dr. Loren Cordain: It was really pretty cool. Then people started doing blogs, and it kind of fell away. Everybody who was anybody interested in this Paleo concept was talking to one another on this listserv. This is where I met everybody. It was actually moderated, there was a guy named Dean Esmay who now has got all kinds of famous blogs and doing other things. He was the moderator of it. We had a wonderful time. This is where I met some of the players that many of our readers will recognize. This is where I met Art Devaney, Jennie Brand Miller from the University of Sydney, who has done all the great work on glycemic index and glycemic loads. This is where I met Stefan Lindburg, this is where I met Mike and Mary Dan Eaves of Protein Power. We all talked to one another.

Then, if we go from 1997 to 2000, we start to kind of come into the modern era, where we start getting close to where Paleo now is becoming ... It wasn't a household word by any means.

Shelley Schlender: It wasn't a household word, people were still stumbling on it in unexpected ways. You ended up with a student there at Colorado State University whose name is Robb Wolf.

Dr. Loren Cordain: You better believe it. I think it was 2000, Rob might want to correct me on this. Rob came down from Seattle, he was living in the Pacific northwest. He had prior to that time all kinds of health problems, which he's documented on his website. He had done the vegan/vegetarian thing to the point where as he puts it it almost killed him. He got online, and he found Art Devainy's website, and he finally found my stuff. He started to read, and then he changed his diet. He went basically from full blown vegan/vegetarian to Paleo.

Shelley Schlender: He went all the way from that beautiful west coast to Fort Collins, here in Colorado, just to be with you.

Dr. Loren Cordain: I think that's what it was all about. He wanted to come down and study with the guy that was kind of at the center of this whole thing in that point in time [00:26:00], ten to fifteen years ago. What a great, wonderful person to come down. I remember him coming into my office, and we spoke for an hour or so. I knew that this guy was right. This guy was somebody that we really needed to get going here as an ally. His objective at the time was to get a PhD from CSU in either biochemistry or physiology. I can't remember precisely. Maybe it was nutrition, I don't know. Fort Collins didn't work out for his girlfriend at the time, didn't work out for him. After a month or two he ended up moving on. We still kept in contact.

Little did I realize, Robb would become one of the major players in this whole idea. We finally reconnected in 2009, some nine years later, when Rob and I finally reconnected. We'd been really close ever since. That was wonderful to see that Rob, he's one of the major players pushing this thing forward.

Shelley Schlender: A lot of this, Loren, that you're talking about, I think about Paleo communities at crossfit gyms, where people talk with each other and slowly build their networks enough to have the courage to try a new way to eat. Find out that, for many of them, they feel better. Or a mom at a school, where she's worried about her child who's always getting ear aches, and that mom starts talking with other people and networking and hearing something that's not being discussed at the doctor's office, which is to eliminate grains and dairy and see what happens.

It's similar to the process that you went through to be a scientist looking at these things. Your curiosity, your concerns for your own health, your desires to be the best athlete you could, and your desire to seek out these things in a scientific way. It's really fascinating how much they resonate with each other, the local experiences and what's happening at the cutting edge of this.

Dr. Loren Cordain: You're actually right. Many times people have health problems or the desire to be fitter, to train higher, or whatever, lose some weight. They kind of come upon this. What they find anecdotally is that this is a type of a diet and lifestyle that is therapeutic for many, many, almost all people seem to benefit from this.


Shelley Schlender: You know what else is that there's more to learn. It's not like everything that was said 50 years ago or 100 years ago or 20 years ago is staying cast in stone, because you guys are scientists. I get to be a journalist here and ask you some hard questions. It's not as though everything is for sure, we're still trying to figure these things out.

Dr. Loren Cordain: I'll be the first to admit I didn't have everything right when I wrote my first book in 2002. We're constantly refining these ideas. The basic concept of the Paleo Diet, that humans are genetically adapted to eating the diet that their ancestors ate, that concept will never leave us. That concept transcends not just humans but all organisms. We occupy these ecologic niches, we do well when we emulate as humans the niche that we occupied for most of the time on our planet.

Shelley Schlender: The fascinating part of this is that even though Paleo Diet makes sense, there's more than one way that people ate way back when.

Dr. Loren Cordain: You're absolutely right Shelley, and I think that that's kind of we're finding is. At the very beginning of this podcast I said one size does not fit all. I still believe it. Some people can do just fine with a little bit of dairy in their diets. What I've built in to all of my books is what I call the 85-15 rule. What that allows people to do is to go off Paleo a couple times a week, they want to go out and have a pizza and a beer with friends on a Saturday night. Do it. If that's going to help you stay on it all week long.

Shelley Schlender: For some people that helps them stay on it, but for other people they discover that they have genetic celiac disease, which means that they can't have a piece of bread for six weeks unless they want to start ravaging their gut.


Dr. Loren Cordain: Shelley, you have hit the nail on the head. What I found anecdotally from people all over the world, they say look Loren, I don't want to do your 85-15 rule because if I go out and have a doughnut it makes me feel so bad for so long that I get it, I get the message that I don't want to do it.

Shelley Schlender: It shows that people have take their attention, and they have to look at this with their own observations to see how these pieces fit together for them. Boy, I would love to talk with you more.

Dr. Loren Cordain: We need to wind it up right now, and I think what better way to wind it up than back to the future. Back to the future is wow. This is 2013, welcome to the new year podcast listeners. Paleo is now a household word known by millions. It's way bigger than Loren Cordain or Boyd Eaton or even Robb Wolf. The whole world knows about it. I just want to thank all of the podcast listeners, everybody that's been involved in Paleo. Scientists, lay people, and everyone. Journalists, Shelley. For promoting this idea.

Shelley Schlender: You know what Loren? Thank you for what you've done. I can't help it, I'm itching it hear what you say next.

Dr. Loren Cordain: All right, well, the next podcast is going to be fun Shelley. We hit on a bunch of topics that I think our listeners are going to be interested in.

That's all for this edition of the Paleo Diet podcast. I hope you enjoyed it.

Shelley Schlender: Our theme music was written and produced by Chatmans Stick Soloist Bob Culbertson.

Dr. Loren Cordain: Visit my website, for the hot links to the experts and studies we talked about today. If you want to send me questions or comments the place to go is

Shelley Schlender: For The Paleo Diet Podcast I'm Shelley Schlender.

Dr. Loren Cordain: I'm Loren Cordain.

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